Use your browser's Find command to search for a word or phrase. Please contact swihart@purdue.edu if you know of a way to sort the archives. Gibberish passages are attachments, they do not archive well! HTML tags in list messages also do not always archive well. A double line as immediately below indicates the beginning of a new message. ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 1 Mar 1999 08:16:10 -0500 From: "Stoll, Ilse (Ilse)" Subject: Re: Allentown Comments: To: Bob Burns MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain At this point the papers are just indicating that there will be a long investigation. The manufacturer indicated that distillation was done at the time of the explosion and that they were producing 50HA (50% hydroxylamine in water) from the sulfate. Ilse Stoll TRB198BG Environmental Laboratory Lucent Technologies 555 Union Blvd. Allentown, PA 18103 610.712.5505 voice 610.712.4400 fax > ---------- > From: Bob Burns[SMTP:rburns@bigfoot.com] > Reply To: Bob Burns > Sent: Saturday, February 27, 1999 7:08 AM > To: LABSAFETY-L@SIU.EDU > Subject: Allentown > > Hi Group, > > I've been watching the AP newswire for a follow-up to the Allentown > explosion story. Never did see one. Did anyone see any more information > other than the original story? I'd be particularly interested in why > hydroxylamine exploded, and the conditions under which it happened in view > of the hazard statements in Sax and the Merck Index and other places. > > I suppose there will be a story in C&EN about it. > > Bob > > "HAPPINESS IS A WARM PUPPY!" > > Bob & Evelyn Burns > Mill Hall, PA > ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 1 Mar 1999 08:23:45 -0500 From: "Stoll, Ilse (Ilse)" Subject: Re: flash points MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Thank you. Do you have a table for i-propanol or where can I find one? Ilse Stoll TRB198BG Environmental Laboratory Lucent Technologies 555 Union Blvd. Allentown, PA 18103 610.712.5505 voice 610.712.4400 fax > ---------- > From: Tony Haggerty[SMTP:techton@IHUG.CO.NZ] > Reply To: LABSAFETY-L Discussion List > Sent: Saturday, February 26, 2000 8:51 PM > To: LABSAFETY-L@SIU.EDU > Subject: Re: flash points > > <> > A copy in Word 6 for those without Internet access ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 1 Mar 1999 07:34:13 EST From: Labsafe@AOL.COM Subject: Seminars in Florida Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit Hi Kathy, Did you make one of the recent seminars we offered in florida? The State Department of Ed wants us to do 12 more next fall. Keep an eye on our schedule at the web site ... www.labsafety.org regards, ... jim ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 1 Mar 1999 07:42:03 PST Reply-To: bbower@ora.fda.gov From: Betsy Bower Subject: Re: p-cresol MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii p-cresol is also used in the U-shaped minimum/maximum thermometers used in microbiology labs and other areas where temperature ranges are important. We've had three of them break over the last 9 years. Every breakage created quite a stir because of the odor. The total amount of cresol in the thermometers is small, maybe a mL at the most, but it packs a wallop of a punch. One of the thermometers broke in a refrigerator/incubator. We scrubbed it down several times using a variety of soaps/solvents, let it air out on the loading dock for a week and it still has a distinctive odor... Lab coats, pants and shoes that have come into contact with the small spills have all been tossed out - the odor is that permeating. And it also numbs the nose quite efecctively. One of the breakages occured in a small laboratory off the main laboratory. The Microbiologist knew something was wrong, but didn't think it was that bad. Meanwhile people are scurrying around the lab trying to find the source of the odor. I opened the door to his lab and was blown away by the smell. The microbiologist had left to go out to lunch. I taped off the door, left a note specifically addressing the microbiologist, not to enter and went to suit up so I could locate and clean up the spill. I returned to find him poking around trying to find the broken thermometer himself, no protective gear, no respiratory protection... Luckily it was a friday afternoon and the lab had all weekend to clear out after the thermometer was found (it had broken after being placed in a drawer) and the spill cleaned up. I told the microbiologist to go home. I found him talking to his supervisor later, I told his supervisor to tell him to go home... he finally left. I tired to convince him shower at the lab and wear coveralls home, to no avail. I'm sure he didn't actually have any of the cresol on his clothes, the odor just "clings", but still... These incidents were a big motivating factor for purchasing recording thermometers for our lab... Betsy Bower bbower@ora.fda.gov ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 27 Feb 1999 09:43:09 -0500 From: "L. James Stock III" <34EMQ6K@CMUVM.CSV.CMICH.EDU> Subject: Re: Formaldehyde and contacts We also recently had a situation with a phenolic compound, p-cresol.... ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 1 Mar 1999 10:17:12 -0600 From: Jeff Rubin Subject: Website In-Reply-To: <4624C75E76CBD111B43500805F6FA8C101823788@pai820exch001u.micro.lucent.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Howdy, It's been a long time in the making: if you're bored, check out the safety website for our College of Natural Sciences: http://www.utexas.edu/cons/safety It's still under construction, but a there's fair bit of info posted (including, of course, links to LSW and NACHO!). Feedback, of course, is always welcome. Just don't ask me any technical questions about the site construction. NACHO listserv veterans will recognize a few ideas that people were tossing about, including the health & safety pledge on the homepage (written by yours truly based largely on what appeared on our list last April, signed by our Dean). Onward, JNR Jeff Rubin, Asst. Dean for EHS College of Natural Sciences G2500 W.C. Hogg Building University of Texas at Austin Austin, TX 78712-1199 (512) 471-6176 (O) (512) 471-4998 (F) jrubin@mail.utexas.edu http://www.utexas.edu/cons/safety/ ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 1 Mar 1999 08:03:46 PST Reply-To: bbower@ora.fda.gov From: Betsy Bower Subject: Re: p-cresol MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii p-cresol is also used in the U-shaped minimum/maximum thermometers used in microbiology labs and other areas where temperature ranges are important. We've had three of them break over the last 9 years. Every breakage created quite a stir because of the odor. The total amount of cresol in the thermometers is small, maybe a mL at the most, but it packs a wallop of a punch. One of the thermometers broke in a refrigerator/incubator. We scrubbed it down several times using a variety of soaps/solvents, let it air out on the loading dock for a week and it still has a distinctive odor... Lab coats, pants and shoes that have come into contact with the small spills have all been tossed out - the odor is that permeating. And it also numbs the nose quite efecctively. One of the breakages occured in a small laboratory off the main laboratory. The Microbiologist knew something was wrong, but didn't think it was that bad. Meanwhile people are scurrying around the lab trying to find the source of the odor. I opened the door to his lab and was blown away by the smell. The microbiologist had left to go out to lunch. I taped off the door, left a note specifically addressed to the microbiologist, "Do not enter" and went to suit up so I could locate and clean up the spill. I returned to find him poking around trying to find the broken thermometer himself, no protective gear, no respiratory protection... Luckily it was a friday afternoon and the lab had all weekend to clear out after the thermometer was found (it had broken after being placed in a drawer, papers had to be tossed, but the drawer was epoxy paint covered, so cleaned up well) and the spill cleaned up. I told the microbiologist to go home. I found him talking to his supervisor later, I told his supervisor to tell him to go home - he was literally stinking up the place... he finally left. I tired to convince him shower at the lab and wear coveralls home, to no avail. I'm sure he didn't actually have any of the cresol on his clothes, the odor just "clings", but still... These incidents were a big motivating factor for purchasing recording thermometers for our lab... Betsy Bower bbower@ora.fda.gov ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 27 Feb 1999 09:43:09 -0500 From: "L. James Stock III" <34EMQ6K@CMUVM.CSV.CMICH.EDU> Subject: Re: Formaldehyde and contacts We also recently had a situation with a phenolic compound, p-cresol.... ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 28 Feb 1999 10:55:47 -0600 From: EH&S Compliance Subject: Re: M E K Question I agree. I checked a MSDS on the material and there is no mention of peroxides formed. It is flammable (flash point open cup 30F (-1.1C) and flash point closed cup 20F (-6.7C)). The vapors are heavier than air and can travel back a considerable distance to a source of ignition and flash back. PEL 200ppm TLV 300ppm IDLH 3000ppm NFPA 1 3 0 HMIS 2 3 0 x Rebecca Levins EH&S Compliance Specialist RSR Corporation Dallas, Texas RSRrdl@onramp.net (214) 583-0245 -----Original Message----- From: Tony Haggerty [SMTP:techton@IHUG.CO.NZ] Sent: Saturday, February 26, 2000 8:10 PM To: LABSAFETY-L@SIU.EDU Subject:Re: M E K Question Mark No one seems to have ventured an answer to your query so I'll put my 2 cents in and say that I do not believe that MEK spontaneously forms Peroxides. There is of course a Peroxide, MEKP, commonly used as a resin catalyst but this is manufactured. Tony H ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 1 Mar 1999 10:59:21 -0700 From: "Sonja G. Ringen" Subject: Re: Columbia U. citation--what were the lab activities involved? MIME-version: 1.0 Jim's response on confusion over HazCom and the Lab Standard raises another point that I am having trouble with, too. And I would like to hear other people's experience on this issue. <> I hope the OSHA people in NY are doing a better job than some NY PESH enforcement officers. I has a very discouraging discussion with one about HazCom vs Lab Std. They were totally confused and simply did not understand the law. In particular, they failed to understand how the Lab Standard replaced the HazCom Std and the rest of Subpat Z in almost all respects. In fact, they thought that Subpart Z consisted of only 29CFR1910.1000!!! <> The University of Wyoming had an inspection by the Wyoming Worker's Safety (state equivalent of OSHA) in January based on a laboratory incident. A custodian cleaned a lab that had been closed and felt she had an exposure to radioactivity without proper training. We contested the citation, so they came up with another one and asked us if we could agree to that citation. We provided the documentation that showed they were wrong on that one, too. So, they've proposed another citation and have asked us if we agree. Of course, not. We had done nothing wrong. It gets old having to train state regulators on their own regulations. Has anybody else had incompetent regulators come through? And at what point does this kind of scenario end? Are they going to cite us just because they have to justify their trip to Laramie? Do most of you have qualified inspectors? Sonja Ringen, Manager Environmental Health and Safety University of Wyoming Laramie, WY 82071-3413 ringen@uwyo.edu ------_=_NextPart_001_01BE640D.3C2C56A6 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable RE: Columbia U. citation--what were the lab activities = involved?

Jim's response on confusion over HazCom and the Lab = Standard raises another point that I am having trouble with, too.  = And I would like to hear other people's experience on this = issue.

<<SNIP>>
I hope the OSHA people in NY are doing a better job = than some NY PESH
enforcement officers.  I has a very = discouraging discussion with one about
HazCom
vs Lab Std.  They were totally confused and = simply did not understand the law.

In particular, they failed to understand how the Lab = Standard replaced the
HazCom Std and the rest of Subpat Z in almost all = respects.  In fact, they
thought that Subpart Z consisted of only = 29CFR1910.1000!!!
<<SNIP>>

The University of Wyoming had an inspection by the = Wyoming Worker's Safety (state equivalent of OSHA) in January based on = a laboratory incident.  A custodian cleaned a lab that had been = closed and felt she had an exposure to radioactivity without proper = training.

We contested the citation, so they came up with = another one and asked us if we could agree to that citation.  We = provided the documentation that showed they were wrong on that one, = too.  So, they've proposed another citation and have asked us if = we agree.  Of course, not.  We had done nothing = wrong.

It gets old having to train state regulators on their = own regulations.  Has anybody else had incompetent regulators come = through?  And at what point does this kind of scenario end?  = Are they going to cite us just because they have to justify their trip = to Laramie?  Do most of you have qualified inspectors?

Sonja Ringen, Manager
Environmental Health and Safety
University of Wyoming
Laramie, WY  82071-3413
ringen@uwyo.edu 

========================================================================= Date: Mon, 1 Mar 1999 12:29:04 -0600 From: James Hermann Subject: Re: Columbia Univ. fined $77,500 by OSHA MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit How many universities "... willfully violated the laboratory standard by failing to carry out the provisions of a written chemical hygiene plan." After all, we get to write our own CHP. Jim -----Original Message----- From: Madelyn Miller [SMTP:mmiller@ANDREW.CMU.EDU] Sent: Friday, February 19, 1999 4:32 PM To: LABSAFETY-L@SIU.EDU Subject:Columbia Univ. fined $77,500 by OSHA Greetings, Check out this web site: http://www.osha.gov/media/oshnews/jan99/reg2ny111.html Columbia Univ. cited by OSHA for alleged willful and other safety and health violations: $77,500 in penalties proposed. Love this quote: "It is a serious matter when an institution such as a university fails to comply with OSHA standards by exposing its employees to a dangerous chemical such as formaldehyde without providing proper protection." Ouch! I dare say many univ. could have passed OSHA's muster on this problem. ---------------------- Madelyn Miller Chemical Hygiene Officer, CCHO Environmental Health & Safety Carnegie Mellon University mmiller@andrew.cmu.edu ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 1 Mar 1999 13:34:46 -0500 From: Kathy Matty Subject: Re: Seminars in Florida Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="=_AAFD4BF3.52335F6C" This is a MIME message. If you are reading this text, you may want to consider changing to a mail reader or gateway that understands how to properly handle MIME multipart messages. Jim, No, I was not able to make any of the Florida Seminars recently. It's been hectic here with the construction and moving of our chemistry labs to our new science lab building. We are now in the process of renovating our old science building. (We have to move out of the building for 8 months.) I will watch the schedule for any seminars in my area. I have already attended 2 of your workshops. If you are looking for a location to conduct a seminar next Spring, please consider Seminole Community College in Sanford, FL (north of Orlando). When our renovation is complete (January 2000) we would be happy to utilize our new classroom and lab facilities. Kathy Kathleen Matty Physical Science Lab Manager Seminole Community College 100 Weldon Boulevard Sanford, Fl 32771 Phone: (407) 328-2257 Fax: (407) 328-2238 >>> 03/01/99 07:34AM >>> Hi Kathy, Did you make one of the recent seminars we offered in florida? The State Department of Ed wants us to do 12 more next fall. Keep an eye on our schedule at the web site ... www.labsafety.org regards, ... jim BEGIN:VCARD VERSION:2.1 X-GWTYPE:USER FN:Kathy Matty ORG:;Science EMAIL;WORK;PREF;NGW:MattyK@mail.seminole.cc.fl.us N:Matty;Kathy X-GWUSERID:MattyK END:VCARD ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 1 Mar 1999 13:10:08 -0600 From: Jeff Rubin Subject: Regulator consistency/competency In-Reply-To: <6360B2C0C2B6D111827000AA00DD928EE283CA@mailhorse.uwyo.edu> Mime-Version: 1.0 OSHA by no means has a monopoply on this. Any time you're relying on an inspector to make an interpretation of a standard, the inspector makes the law (a common analogy is a cop deciding at what speed he'll actually pull someone over). We were trying to work with the FAA on some helicopter standards for our system: the local inspector told us that he didn't really care what FAA HQ said - he was the local inspector and his signature would be on the report. The dunce of an inspector at Wyoming may have been incompetent, but it seems that consistency is an even bigger hurdle. JNR Jeff Rubin, Asst. Dean for EHS College of Natural Sciences G2500 W.C. Hogg Building University of Texas at Austin Austin, TX 78712-1199 (512) 471-6176 (O) (512) 471-4998 (F) jrubin@mail.utexas.edu http://www.utexas.edu/cons/safety/ ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 2 Mar 1999 07:58:50 +1300 From: John Downey Subject: Re: flash points MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Ilse I suspect that NOBODY has done one. As I suggested in my original posting, this would be a good little project for a reasonably competent student with a Pensky-Marten unit, as most flashpoints are reported as closed-cup. Better still, get them to calculate the equation of the curves for each common alcohol and see if there is a pattern emerging. If they did it, they could publish the results, and you and I and a few others would be eternally grateful, wouldn't we. Regards John Downey Hazardous Substances Officer Waitakere City Council Waitakere City New Zealand Phone +64 9 8368036 Fax +64 9 8368001 > -----Original Message----- > From: Stoll, Ilse (Ilse) [SMTP:ilsestoll@LUCENT.COM] > Sent: Tuesday, March 02, 1999 2:24 AM > To: LABSAFETY-L@SIU.EDU > Subject: Re: flash points > > Thank you. Do you have a table for i-propanol or where can I find one? > > Ilse Stoll > TRB198BG > Environmental Laboratory > Lucent Technologies > 555 Union Blvd. > Allentown, PA 18103 > 610.712.5505 voice > 610.712.4400 fax > > ---------- > > From: Tony Haggerty[SMTP:techton@IHUG.CO.NZ] > > Reply To: LABSAFETY-L Discussion List > > Sent: Saturday, February 26, 2000 8:51 PM > > To: LABSAFETY-L@SIU.EDU > > Subject: Re: flash points > > > > <> > > A copy in Word 6 for those without Internet access > > > > ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 1 Mar 1999 14:17:10 -0500 From: Mike Pirrello Subject: Re: flash points MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Shoot. If someone buys me one, I'll do it at home in my garage just because I'm sick of the data not being available. After simple water/polar solvent mixtures, I'd like to see some of the common laboratory solvent mixtures done, like phenol/chloroform/isoamyl alcohol, stuff like that. Alternatively, the list function as an on-line parallel processor if everybody would be willing to pay for one solvent curve to be tested commercially. Is there really nobody out there with a student who'd jump at the chance to use this as a undergraduate research project? Michael G. Pirrello, CHMM Safety & Environmental Mgr. Trimeris, Inc. 4727 University Drive, Ste. 100 Durham, NC 27707-3485 Ph: (919) 419-6050 Fx: (919) 419-1816 Mpirrello@trimeris.com -----Original Message----- From: John Downey [SMTP:John.Downey@WAITAKERE.GOVT.NZ] Sent: Monday, March 01, 1999 1:59 PM To: LABSAFETY-L@SIU.EDU Subject:Re: flash points Ilse I suspect that NOBODY has done one. As I suggested in my original posting, this would be a good little project for a reasonably competent student with a Pensky-Marten unit, as most flashpoints are reported as closed-cup. Better still, get them to calculate the equation of the curves for each common alcohol and see if there is a pattern emerging. If they did it, they could publish the results, and you and I and a few others would be eternally grateful, wouldn't we. Regards John Downey Hazardous Substances Officer Waitakere City Council Waitakere City New Zealand Phone +64 9 8368036 Fax +64 9 8368001 > -----Original Message----- > From: Stoll, Ilse (Ilse) [SMTP:ilsestoll@LUCENT.COM] > Sent: Tuesday, March 02, 1999 2:24 AM > To: LABSAFETY-L@SIU.EDU > Subject: Re: flash points > > Thank you. Do you have a table for i-propanol or where can I find one? > > Ilse Stoll > TRB198BG > Environmental Laboratory > Lucent Technologies > 555 Union Blvd. > Allentown, PA 18103 > 610.712.5505 voice > 610.712.4400 fax > > > > ---------- > > From: Tony Haggerty[SMTP:techton@IHUG.CO.NZ] > > Reply To: LABSAFETY-L Discussion List > > Sent: Saturday, February 26, 2000 8:51 PM > > To: LABSAFETY-L@SIU.EDU > > Subject: Re: flash points > > > > <> > > A copy in Word 6 for those without Internet access > > > > ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 28 Feb 1999 13:15:21 -0600 From: EH&S Compliance Subject: Re: Seminars in Florida Jim & Kathy, I think you are inadvertently posting to the Lab Safety list. Rebecca Levins EH&S Compliance Specialist RSR Corporation Dallas, Texas RSRrdl@onramp.net (214) 583-0245 -----Original Message----- From: Kathy Matty [SMTP:MattyK@MAIL.SEMINOLE.CC.FL.US] Sent: Monday, March 01, 1999 12:35 PM To: LABSAFETY-L@SIU.EDU Subject:Re: Seminars in Florida << File: Kathy Matty.vcf >> Jim, No, I was not able to make any of the Florida Seminars recently. It's been hectic here with the construction and moving of our chemistry labs to our new science lab building. We are now in the process of renovating our old science building. (We have to move out of the building for 8 months.) I will watch the schedule for any seminars in my area. I have already attended 2 of your workshops. If you are looking for a location to conduct a seminar next Spring, please consider Seminole Community College in Sanford, FL (north of Orlando). When our renovation is complete (January 2000) we would be happy to utilize our new classroom and lab facilities. Kathy Kathleen Matty Physical Science Lab Manager Seminole Community College 100 Weldon Boulevard Sanford, Fl 32771 Phone: (407) 328-2257 Fax: (407) 328-2238 >>> 03/01/99 07:34AM >>> Hi Kathy, Did you make one of the recent seminars we offered in florida? The State Department of Ed wants us to do 12 more next fall. Keep an eye on our schedule at the web site ... www.labsafety.org regards, ... jim ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 1 Mar 1999 08:07:36 EST From: Labsafe@AOL.COM Subject: NACHO Membership Stats Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit Hi NACHO Members, Now you can follow the growth of our Association in the NACHO section of the LSW web site. Go to http://www.labsafety.org/archives/stats.htm to see the membership grow. Tell a friend about NACHO and see it grow faster! ... jim ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 1 Mar 1999 13:53:30 -0600 Reply-To: "swiki@bihs.net" From: Swiki Anderson Subject: Re: Columbia Univ. fined $77,500 by OSHA - PREVENTION BY COST EFFECTIVELY ADDRESSING THE BASIS PROBLEM? MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Food for thought: The OSHA standards are written on a concentration basis, directed at certain chemicals. They dictate maximum PELs, TLVs, etc. If the concentrations in the workplace are excessive this would imply that the ventilation system is dilution rather than containment based would it not? Many lab users and lab safety people don't know the difference between these two concepts (see http://www.saai-svc.com/engineer/html/tech-notex.htm and click on Dilution vs. containment Ventilation! Which is the Safest Method?) If a lab has a dilution ventilation system then it is not working correctly or the release rate of the toxic material is to high. Can laboratory air flow systems be converted to containment systems at a reasonable cost? Could this possibly be done and produce a savings and with significant safety improvement? What does it take ? (see http://www.saai-svc.com/engineer/html/tech-notex.htm and click on Fume Hoods and Laboratory Air Flow Systems: Lessons, Features, and Improvements, from the Old Saints of the Atomic Energy Era through Today, CSHEMA Paper Food For thought. Swiki Anderson, Ph.D., P.E., From: James Hermann [SMTP:jhermann@VALSPAR.COM] Sent: Monday, March 01, 1999 12:29 PM How many universities "... willfully violated the laboratory standard by failing to carry out the provisions of a written chemical hygiene plan." After all, we get to write our own CHP. Jim ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 1 Mar 1999 14:58:23 -0500 From: "L. James Stock III" <34EMQ6K@CMUVM.CSV.CMICH.EDU> Subject: Re: chloro tri- base Mime-Version: 1.0 First, my thanks to: Michael G. Hottott, Department of Chemistry, University of Puget Sound for the 1-800 telephone number to BASF. It seems my Chloro tri base was last munufactured in Germany back in 1991 and all they had was a cas#. I inserted my trusty Aldrich MSDS CD-ROM and boom: Chloro tri base is: 5-Chloro-2-methylene-1,3,3-trimethylindoline! Cool!!!!!! Thanks to all in this group for your interest and help. Jamie Stock ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 1 Mar 1999 14:21:35 -0600 Reply-To: "swiki@bihs.net" From: Swiki Anderson Subject: Re: Columbia U. citation--what were the lab activities involved? MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Rather than trying to help Columbia shirt the issue, why not own up to the fact that a containment ventilation problems exist and address and fix the problem? If the OSHA regs dictate a maximum concentration of a material in the laboratory work place (not within the hoods) then the laboratory air flow control system is not doing its job or someone is liberating way to much material in the work place. Either one has no ventilation system or a dilution rather than a containment ventilation laboratory air flow control system. If it is a dilution system, then more air flow is needed to adhere to the "solution to pollution is dilution" as a basis of design and operation. If it is a containment ventilation system, then it must not be working correctly. Engineered solutions that can convert dilutions laboratory air flow control system to containment ventilation systems are available can most often produce a savings for the owner who to find objectively address the problems. If you want to know more, call me at 409.779.6068, x11 or go to our webpage at http://www.saai-svc.com/html/tech-notes.htm. I will gladly share with you what we have learned from testing, design, and trouble shooting regarding laboratory air flow control systems. Swiki Anderson, Ph.D. P.E. -----Original Message----- From: Sonja G. Ringen [SMTP:Ringen@UWYO.EDU] Sent: Monday, March 01, 1999 11:59 AM To: LABSAFETY-L@SIU.EDU Subject:Re: Columbia U. citation--what were the lab activities involved? ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 2 Mar 1999 08:08:19 +1100 From: Barry Searle Subject: Re: M E K Question MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Could you please advise me of the source/manufacturer of MEKP? Does anyone have any User safety instructions when using this orgainc liquid? Thankyou Barry EM UNIT UNSW -----Original Message----- From: EH&S Compliance To: LABSAFETY-L@SIU.EDU Date: Tuesday, 2 March 1999 4:39 Subject: Re: M E K Question >I agree. >I checked a MSDS on the material and there is no mention of peroxides >formed. It is flammable (flash point open cup 30F (-1.1C) and flash point >closed cup 20F (-6.7C)). The vapors are heavier than air and can travel >back a considerable distance to a source of ignition and flash back. > >PEL 200ppm >TLV 300ppm >IDLH 3000ppm > >NFPA 1 3 0 >HMIS 2 3 0 x > >Rebecca Levins >EH&S Compliance Specialist >RSR Corporation >Dallas, Texas > >RSRrdl@onramp.net >(214) 583-0245 > >-----Original Message----- >From: Tony Haggerty [SMTP:techton@IHUG.CO.NZ] >Sent: Saturday, February 26, 2000 8:10 PM >To: LABSAFETY-L@SIU.EDU >Subject:Re: M E K Question > >Mark >No one seems to have ventured an answer to your query so I'll put my 2 >cents >in and say that I do not believe that MEK spontaneously forms Peroxides. >There is of course a Peroxide, MEKP, commonly used as a resin catalyst but >this is manufactured. >Tony H ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 1 Mar 1999 15:55:19 -0500 From: "Norman, Randy" Subject: Re: C Un.....-Re: PREVENTION BY COST EFFECTIVELY ADDRESSING TH E BASIS PROBLEM? MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" * Many lab users and lab safety people don't know the difference * between these two concepts (see http://www.saai-svc.com/engineer * /html/tech-notex.htm and click on Dilution vs. containment Ventilation! Where are all of these incompetent lab safety people?? Why "trash" them so HERE? Haven't met a one of them yet that didn't know the difference between dilution and local exhaust ventilation. If they know there's a lab std. they must know of the need for local exhaust devices and know or quickly learn when they should be used. I would posit that if they've been proactive enough to subscribe to this listserver, they have probably also learned at least the basics. * If a lab has a dilution ventilation system then it is not working * correctly or the release rate of the toxic material is to high. ???? - I am guessing what is meant is that one should not count on dilution ventilation as your only means of protection from those materials which should be used in a hood. However, adequate dilution ventilation is very important for a lab! We require 10 Air Changes/Hr minimum (yes I know ACH is a rather outmoded measure, but it's easy to verify). Randy Norman Safety Specialist Sr. BioReliance Corporation Rockville, MD 20850 Rnorman@bioreliance.com "Success is a journey, not a destination" - Ben Sweetland ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 1 Mar 1999 14:45:38 -0700 From: Katrina Doolittle Subject: Respiratory Protection during Bulk Waste Processing in Outdoor Facility Mime-Version: 1.0 We are a university which qualifies as a large quantity generator for hazardous waste. Our office manages all hazardous waste generated. We are in the process of upgrading our current respiratory protection from SCBA to supplied air respirators for waste processing activities. We would like your input regarding respiratory protection for the scenarios depicted below. The hazardous waste processing facility is located outdoors at the end of the storage building. The area is open to the outside on three sides. The ceiling is approximately 12 feet high and the width is about 20 feet. The processing area is about 20 x 20 feet square with chain link fence surrounding the area. A series of gates control access and are open during processing procedures. The processing consists primarily of bulking compatible chemicals for shipment to a hazardous waste disposal facility. There is a potential for an explosion or reaction due to improperly labeled waste containers by third party researchers. Our current process utilizes SCBAs for respiratory protection during processing. Due to the air tank capacity limitations (about 20 minutes) a supplied air system is being considered to enable more efficient processing. Typically there are three personnel involved, two are processing while the third usually is rinsing empty containers. The third party is usually not in the processing area.. WORST CASE SCENARIOS: There is limited possibility of an IDLH atmosphere during the bulking process. For example, two common laboratory chemical wastes (benzene and acetonitrile) have IDLH of 500 ppm. During the pouring of such chemicals, it is possible that 500 ppm will be present in the atmosphere for a limited time while pouring. During an unexpected violent reaction (which could occur due to a improperly labeled waste container), the airline could be ruptured or cut, an employee could be knocked down, rendered unconscious or disabled (broken appendage). The question: Is the 5 minute air pack a requirement to our personnel who will be processing waste utilizing supplied air resirators in the outdoor processing facility? Or will the outdoor atmosphere provide adequate ventilation to avoid the need to wear the 5 minute escape pack? We entertain any and all input on this issue and we thank you in advance. Graham Munsell, Industrial Hygienist Katrina Doolittle, Director for Safety ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 1 Mar 1999 17:12:14 -0500 From: Madelyn Miller Subject: M E K Question In-Reply-To: <00c501be6427$a26b5d80$1c965e81@barry-searle> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; CHARSET=US-ASCII Greetings, MEK peroxide is a completely separate chemical used in the polymeriazaton of fiberglass. It is reactive. Madelyn > Could you please advise me of the source/manufacturer of MEKP? > > Does anyone have any User safety instructions when using this orgainc > liquid? > ---------------------- Madelyn Miller Chemical Hygiene Officer, CCHO Environmental Health & Safety Carnegie Mellon University mmiller@andrew.cmu.edu ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 1 Mar 2000 11:31:55 +1300 From: Tony Haggerty Subject: Re: M E K Question MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit The attached was taken from a UK database that I use. Interox are in New Zealand and I suspect in the US. Regards Tony PEROXID-CHEMIE LTD (FORMERLY: LAPORTE/INTEROX) SEAL SANDS 01642 546666 GENERAL ENQUIRIES 01642 546224 ****** End of Document ****** ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 1 Mar 2000 10:36:33 +1300 From: Tony Haggerty Subject: Re: flash points - iso Propanol MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit The original request asked the same question but no one came up with anything :-( Tony ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 2 Mar 1999 10:07:52 +1100 Reply-To: ternai@techinfo.com.au From: "Prof. B. Ternai" Subject: Re: flash points MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; x-mac-type="54455854"; x-mac-creator="4D4F5353" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit There is a book by the Enjay Chemical Company, "Isopropyl Alcohol", which lists and provides a graph, of mixtures of isopropanol with water. It is also an excellent source of information about this compound. If you need info in detail, please e-mail me off the list. B. Ternai "Stoll, Ilse (Ilse)" wrote: > Thank you. Do you have a table for i-propanol or where can I find one? > > Ilse Stoll > TRB198BG > Environmental Laboratory > Lucent Technologies > 555 Union Blvd. > Allentown, PA 18103 > 610.712.5505 voice > 610.712.4400 fax > > > ---------- > > From: Tony Haggerty[SMTP:techton@IHUG.CO.NZ] > > Reply To: LABSAFETY-L Discussion List > > Sent: Saturday, February 26, 2000 8:51 PM > > To: LABSAFETY-L@SIU.EDU > > Subject: Re: flash points > > > > <> > > A copy in Word 6 for those without Internet access > > > > ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 2 Mar 1999 08:04:36 EST From: Labsafe@AOL.COM Subject: Re: The Problems of Regulatory Agencies Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit In a message dated 99-03-01 13:00:58 EST, you write: << It gets old having to train state regulators on their own regulations. Has anybody else had incompetent regulators come through? And at what point does this kind of scenario end? Are they going to cite us just because they have to justify their trip to Laramie? Do most of you have qualified inspectors? >> Hi NACHOs, The sad reality is that the lab standard came along and the regulatory folks had little or no idea what to do about it. One OSHA region asked me to train their 120 folks by giving five one-day training seminars. They had no money to train them and no money for them to all travel to one location so it could be done all on one day. With hindsight I regret not just simply doing it. Five or six years later, I volunteered to do the training for free. I was told that it would be inappropriate for them to accept this offer! We live in a very strange world. .... jim PS. LSW did provide a free one-day lab safety seminar last year for all the interested state and federal agencies in Massachusetts. It was hosted by the MA Department of Labor and Workplace Safety. These are great folks working very hard to help create safer workplaces with very limited resources. Sadly, a similar offer for that area of NY which I mentioned previously seems to have fallen on deaf ears. It's been a month with no response. ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 2 Mar 1999 16:12:12 +0300 From: ERL_WS1 Subject: delete my address from list Please delete my address from your mailing list until further request. Thanks. Ahmed H. Fayoumi fayoumi@kfupm.edu.sa ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 2 Mar 1999 09:07:36 -0500 From: "Barbara J. Weaver" Subject: Re: NACHO Membership Stats MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain What is a concealed member? > -----Original Message----- > From: Labsafe@AOL.COM [SMTP:Labsafe@AOL.COM] > Sent: Monday, March 01, 1999 8:08 AM > To: LABSAFETY-L@SIU.EDU > Subject: NACHO Membership Stats > > Hi NACHO Members, > > Now you can follow the growth of our Association in the NACHO section of > the LSW web site. Go to http://www.labsafety.org/archives/stats.htm to see > the membership grow. Tell a friend about NACHO and see it grow faster! ... > jim > > ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 2 Mar 1999 08:53:39 -0800 Reply-To: Marc Neuffer From: Marc Neuffer Subject: More info MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Good Morning! http://www.safetyinfo.com/news/news.htm Have really enjoyed (lurking) listening to all the exchange of info. This is just to let you know we have posted more free safety info on our site for you. Weekly Safety Poster, Weekly Safety Brief, On-line Confined Space Training Module, 3 New Audit Guides, 2 New Safety Forms, etc. Click on the above link to see all that we have added this week. Regards & Best Wishes Marc Neuffer Safety Info.Com safety1@localaccess.net (256)840-9530 ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 2 Mar 1999 09:54:35 -0500 From: Bob Burns Subject: Re: NACHO Membership Stats MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit We could tell you, but we'd have to kill you. ;<)) -----Original Message----- From: Barbara J. Weaver To: LABSAFETY-L@siu.edu Date: Tuesday, March 02, 1999 9:19 Subject: Re: NACHO Membership Stats >What is a concealed member? > >> -----Original Message----- >> From: Labsafe@AOL.COM [SMTP:Labsafe@AOL.COM] >> Sent: Monday, March 01, 1999 8:08 AM >> To: LABSAFETY-L@SIU.EDU >> Subject: NACHO Membership Stats >> >> Hi NACHO Members, >> >> Now you can follow the growth of our Association in the NACHO section of >> the >> LSW web site. Go to http://www.labsafety.org/archives/stats.htm to see >> the >> membership grow. Tell a friend about NACHO and see it grow faster! ... >> jim >> >> ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 2 Mar 1999 09:57:18 -0400 From: Don Abramowitz Subject: Re: Respiratory Protection during Bulk Waste Processing in Outdoor Facility Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit We are >in the process of upgrading our current respiratory protection from SCBA to >supplied air respirators for waste processing activities. >The question: Is the 5 minute air pack a requirement to our personnel who >will be processing waste utilizing supplied air resirators in the outdoor >processing facility? I'm making a similar decision at present. Having worn 5 minute escape packs on airline respirators in my Superfund days, the matter is not trivial, and I would not default to the highest level of protection just to be on the safe side. The inclusion of the escape bottle is a significant ergonomic compromise in the switch from SCBAs to airlines in this fairly labor intensive activity. In the scenario you describe, my opinion is that the 5 minute escape pack is not necessary, providing the layout of fencing and gates does not interfere unduly with beating a hasty retreat. (I generally see the 5 minute bottle as essential in confined space entries and in large processing buildings where escape is a significant issue.) In the time it takes to activate the 5 minute bottle, one could walk the few yards it would take to escape the >500 ppm levels predicted in the pouring area in an outdoor setting. In the worst case scenario involving unconsciousness, the 5 minute bottle does not activate automatically - the valve must be opened by hand. Airline hoses are rather substantial, and if you were to have a reaction sufficient to severe the hose, respiratory protection may be the least of your problems. A couple of points I would include in the changeover from SCBA's: - Emphasize the need to leave the area immediately when there is any doubt about the performance of the respirator. - If you will be using bottled air, be sure to include a pressure-activated "5 minutes left" alarm with your regulator (frequently a clanging bell or whistle), and locate the alarm close enough to the work area that it can be heard by all. - Use disposable hose covers to protect the airlines in use. These plastic sleeves fit loosely over the hoses and help prevent deterioration from chemical exposure and abrasion. I'd be curious to hear opinions on the body protection needed in this scenario. I typically use a plastic-coated, sealed seam disposable coverall for splash protection, but sometimes think a flame resistant lab coat or coverall such as nomex(r), and cloth head/neck cover of the sort firefighters wear would be a better choice when handling flammables, especially when you have reason to worry about reactivity among containers. Day to day, the splash issue seems to be the more pressing concern, but the fire worry is the big ticket item. Whaddya think? Don ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Donald Abramowitz, CIH Occupational and Environmental Safety Officer Bryn Mawr College | Swarthmore College 101 N. Merion Avenue | 500 College Avenue Bryn Mawr, PA 19010 | Swarthmore PA 19081 ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 2 Mar 1999 09:09:54 -0800 Reply-To: Marc Neuffer From: Marc Neuffer Subject: More Info MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From Marc Neuffer Good Morning! http://www.safetyinfo.com/news/news.htm Have really enjoyed (lurking) listening to all the exchange of info. This is just to let you know we have posted more free safety info on our site for you. Weekly Safety Poster, Weekly Safety Brief, On-line Confined Space Training Module, 3 New Audit Guides, 2 New Safety Forms, etc. Click on the above link to see all that we have added this week. Regards & Best Wishes Marc Neuffer Safety Info.Com safety1@localaccess.net (256)840-9530 ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 2 Mar 1999 10:12:01 -0500 From: "Dr. Linda A. Swihart" Subject: Concealed member In-Reply-To: <0D907816B00AD211A93300A0C9B3BBE6274168@xdelta.lancasterlab s.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 At 09:07 AM 3/2/99 -0500, Barbara J. Weaver wrote: >What is a concealed member? > You may conceal your name and email address so that any list member requesting a "review" from the list server cannot learn your name or address. Any list member can send a REVIEW command to the server and receive a list of all the non-concealed names and email addresses. This is true for any listserv, I believe. It is not pleasant to think that anyone would join our list in order to "harvest" our email addresses and sell them to spammers or use them for spam themselves, but it probably does happen with lists from time to time. I have received unsolicited email from someone that I think might have got my address from this list. When I asked them where they got my address they said, "oh I'm not really sure, probably from a conference or somewhere..." It was profession-related spam, and I may very well have been interested in it, but I wasn't and they were polite and dropped me from their list when I asked. There are details at the LSW web site, under the NACHO section, which tell a lot more about listserv commands. The important thing to remember is DO NOT SEND listserv commands to this address (labsafety-L@siu.edu), which we use to send messages to each other. Listserv commands have to go to a different address, which is LISTSERV@siu.edu, and the computer we call the listserver acts on them in an automated fashion.... Regards, Linda ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 2 Mar 1999 12:25:16 -0500 From: "Dr. Linda A. Swihart" Subject: formoterol fumarate In-Reply-To: <435ACBA4E161D1118AC7006008A057A02B3B31@ehs-nts1.ehs.ufl.ed u> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit I find this quite fascinating, and I have questions: Got email today from a Dr. Z at what appears to be a pharmaceutical company in Switzerland. He wishes to have an MSDS for formoterol fumarate dihydrate and supposes we have one at Purdue since our web site refers to the substance. (It's on a webpage list of materials labeled at teratogens by Sax 7th ed.) 'If you could fax it to me today that would be ideal,' or some such (not perfect quote). I went a-searching, because it was more interesting than my regularly scheduled drudgery, and found rather little at first. It's in Chemfinder, CAS # 43229-80-7 and very little else. It is sold by Korean and Indian herbalists and pharmacies as antitussive, bronchiodilator, probably many more... http://www.ahn-gook.com/index-10.html http://www.cipla.com/prod1.html There was some roadkill that suggested that it had been approved in Canada. (By roadkill, I mean the Alta Vista search engine has the URL indexed but the link is dead. The teaser said "New Drug News. The following table outlines drugs that have received Notice of Compliance in Canada since January 1996. These drugs have received approval. URL: uni3sys.unipharm.com/InPHARMation/vol2-no5/newdrugs.html Last modified 10-Jul-97" Then I found a very interesting Nov 1998 SkyePharma press release (Britain) about a 6 million pound investment and collaboration: SkyePharma PLC (LSE:"SKP"/Nasdaq:"SKYEY") andNovartis Pharma (Zürich: "NOV") announced today that they have signed a collaborative agreement to jointly develop a new formulation of Foradil(r), the long acting beta-agonist for the treatment of asthma. The new product will utilise SkyePharma's patented multi-dose dry powder inhaler device (MDPI)..... Under the terms of the collaboration, Novartis will also make an equity investment in SkyePharma of £6 million ($10.1 million) at 70p per SkyePharma share being the average middle market price.... "SkyePharma has granted Novartis an exclusive world-wide license to market Foradil(r) in its novel delivery form. Foradil(r) (formoterol fumarate) is a long-acting bronchodilator used in the treatment of chronic asthma. It is currently marketed in 50 countries. Sales of Foradil(r) for the first 9 months of 1998 grew by 29%...." That's where I quit and wrote Dr Z saying I had no MSDS, sorry, but would be interested in getting a copy from him if he obtains one. Does anyone in NACHO land know anything about formoterol fumarate? Anybody have an MSDS? Is it still listed as a teratogen in the new Sax? Has it been approved in Canada? (And do you think I should buy SKYEY and or NOV? :-) Linda ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 2 Mar 1999 12:41:14 -0500 From: Nick Pinizzotto Subject: Devil's advocate to eating in the lab. MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Okay folks, Just wanted to let you know about the phone call I just received from a physician here. She stated that she is seeing a patient who is pregnant and having difficulty in keeping food down. They are going to put her on a nasal/gastric tube with a pump and feedbags. She wanted to know if it was okay for her to wear it and eat in the lab. Can anyone come up with an excuse why she shouldn't be eating in the lab? The bags are prepared in the pharmacy so there is no opening and loading in the lab. Better yet would our friends at OSHA consider this "willful disregard of the chemical hygiene plan?" I think it gives new meaning to the term "strapping the feed bag on." Nick Pinizzotto Environmental Health Officer Dept. Environmental Health & Safety Thomas Jefferson University nick.pinizzotto@mail.tju.edu 215-503-5853 ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 2 Mar 1999 10:40:25 -0700 From: "Helen B. Gerhard" Subject: Re: Devil's advocate to eating in the lab. MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain What is the possibility of materials crossing the bag/air interface? Thanks! Helen ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 2 Mar 1999 12:53:46 -0500 From: Bob Burns Subject: Re: Devil's advocate to eating in the lab. MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I don't want to reopen an old thread, but in our shop we find non-laboratory work for expectant mothers. I think, if you allow other pregnant females, you have to let her, if, as you say, the feeding mechanism is sealed away from lab chemicals. Why not? Bob -----Original Message----- From: Nick Pinizzotto To: LABSAFETY-L@siu.edu Date: Tuesday, March 02, 1999 12:44 Subject: Devil's advocate to eating in the lab. >Okay folks, > >Just wanted to let you know about the phone call I just received from a >physician here. > >She stated that she is seeing a patient who is pregnant and having difficulty >in keeping food down. They are going to put her on a nasal/gastric tube with a >pump and feedbags. She wanted to know if it was okay for her to wear it and >eat in the lab. > >Can anyone come up with an excuse why she shouldn't be eating in the lab? >The bags are prepared in the pharmacy so there is no opening and loading in >the lab. Better yet would our friends at OSHA consider this "willful disregard >of the chemical hygiene plan?" > >I think it gives new meaning to the term "strapping the feed bag on." > >Nick Pinizzotto >Environmental Health Officer >Dept. Environmental Health & Safety >Thomas Jefferson University >nick.pinizzotto@mail.tju.edu >215-503-5853 ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 2 Mar 1999 12:10:53 -0600 From: Beth Brubaker Subject: Re: flash points Mime-Version: 1.0 I plan to propose flash point testing of mixtures as an undergraduate research project. We'll start with simple alcohol/water mixtures and move up to other solvent mixtures. Our main hurdle will be purchasing the test equipment. If this goes through, I'll post data as it's compiled. Beth Brubaker Lab/Safety/Waste Coordinator Murray State University Department of Chemistry (502) 762-6390 beth.brubaker@murraystate.edu ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 2 Mar 1999 13:49:47 -0600 From: Jeff Rubin Subject: Re: Respiratory Protection during Bulk Waste Processing in Outdoor Facility In-Reply-To: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit There aren't many satisfactory options out there that combine chemical protection with flame/heat protection. Shielded or coated chemical protective clothing MAY over brief flash protection, but if it's more than that, most "bunny suits" become shrink-wrap. Even if you wear Nomex or PBI material over the suit, you're still looking at material that can melt to your skin if you're caught in a hot-spot. Most fire depts. haven't comfortably resolved this issue, either. As Don pointed out - assess relative hazard severity. Anyone out there have different experience or know of some newer products that actually work? JNR >I'd be curious to hear opinions on the body protection needed in this >scenario. I typically use a plastic-coated, sealed seam disposable >coverall for splash protection, but sometimes think a flame resistant lab >coat or coverall such as nomex(r), and cloth head/neck cover of the sort >firefighters wear would be a better choice when handling flammables, >especially when you have reason to worry about reactivity among containers. >Day to day, the splash issue seems to be the more pressing concern, but >the fire worry is the big ticket item. Whaddya think? Jeff Rubin, Asst. Dean for EHS College of Natural Sciences G2500 W.C. Hogg Building University of Texas at Austin Austin, TX 78712-1199 (512) 471-6176 (O) (512) 471-4998 (F) jrubin@mail.utexas.edu http://www.utexas.edu/cons/safety/ ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 2 Mar 1999 12:55:16 -0700 From: Sharyn Bake Subject: Re: Respiratory Protection during Bulk Waste Processing in Outdoo r Facility MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit There are, as Dr. Rubin has pointed out, excellent flame retardant and even flame resistant fabrics. I know from experience as a firefighter/hazMat trainer. The real issue here however, is that one should be preventing the development of an atmosphere and circumstances where a flash fire occurs. This can be accomplished through proper work practices, good ventilation, using appropriate pouring techniques and equipment , bonding etc. I personally would recommend nomex suits for persons who are routinely doing such work and pour large amounts of flammable solvents as a precaution. The suits can cost as little as $100 each. While this is not cheap, it is cheap if it helps prevent severe burns from a flash fire event. The other part of the equation is proper training and constant vigilance to prevent an accident. Just my two cents worth........ Sharyn Baker Instructor Health and Safety Division University of Colorado Health Sciences Center Denver, Colorado email: sharyn.baker@uchsc.edu > ---------- > From: Jeff Rubin > Reply To: LABSAFETY-L Discussion List > Sent: Tuesday, March 2, 1999 12:49 PM > To: LABSAFETY-L@SIU.EDU > Subject: Re: Respiratory Protection during Bulk Waste Processing in > Outdoor Facility > > There aren't many satisfactory options out there that combine chemical > protection with flame/heat protection. Shielded or coated chemical > protective clothing MAY over brief flash protection, but if it's more than > that, most "bunny suits" become shrink-wrap. Even if you wear Nomex or > PBI > material over the suit, you're still looking at material that can melt to > your skin if you're caught in a hot-spot. Most fire depts. haven't > comfortably resolved this issue, either. > > As Don pointed out - assess relative hazard severity. Anyone out there > have different experience or know of some newer products that actually > work? > > JNR > > >I'd be curious to hear opinions on the body protection needed in this > >scenario. I typically use a plastic-coated, sealed seam disposable > >coverall for splash protection, but sometimes think a flame resistant lab > >coat or coverall such as nomex(r), and cloth head/neck cover of the sort > >firefighters wear would be a better choice when handling flammables, > >especially when you have reason to worry about reactivity among > containers. > >Day to day, the splash issue seems to be the more pressing concern, but > >the fire worry is the big ticket item. Whaddya think? > Jeff Rubin, Asst. Dean for EHS > College of Natural Sciences G2500 > W.C. Hogg Building > University of Texas at Austin > Austin, TX 78712-1199 > (512) 471-6176 (O) > (512) 471-4998 (F) > jrubin@mail.utexas.edu > http://www.utexas.edu/cons/safety/ > > > > ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 3 Mar 1999 09:42:19 +1300 From: Tony Haggerty Subject: Re: Respiratory Protection during Bulk Waste Processing in Outdoor Facility MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit There is a material which consists of transfer coated Polyurethane on a cotton base which is splash resistant and fire retardant. The secret s to have a very thin layer of PU which is hard to control. It was used as over trouser material by some Fire Services. The European Space Agency investigated this material and found that when the construction was right it worked well but if the PU layer got too thick then the fire retardancy dropped. Fire Departments generally take the approach of controlling the atmosphere and or ignition sources and selecting protective clothing accordingly. Some British brigades had a policy of wearing a total encapsulating splash suit over fire fighting gear and SCBA set. Rumour has it they wore a blue top and red tights under this *grin* The long term answer is definitely that these operations should only be carried out in controlled areas with adequate ventilation and no sources of ignition. Nomex coveralls or even cotton will give some protection. Tony Haz Subs Adviser NZFS ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 2 Mar 1999 14:53:41 -0600 From: Katie Crysup Subject: Re: Devil's advocate to eating in the lab. In-Reply-To: <006e01be64d5$9fca4ec0$0100007f@BBURNS> Mime-Version: 1.0 At 12:53 PM 3/2/99 -0500, you wrote: >I don't want to reopen an old thread, but in our shop we find non-laboratory >work for expectant mothers. We do the same in our labs for expectant mothers.> >I think, if you allow other pregnant females, you have to let her, if, as >you say, the feeding mechanism is sealed away from lab chemicals. Why not? > Is she hooked up to the feeding mechansim at all times, like an IV? Or can she not "eat" during lab? I think it is just easier and less concern for all involved if she is allowed to have a non-laboratory option in order to get her grade. What about her health and safety issues? What training have the TA's had in handling a situation with her should something happen to her during lab? > >-----Original Message----- >From: Nick Pinizzotto >To: LABSAFETY-L@siu.edu >Date: Tuesday, March 02, 1999 12:44 >Subject: Devil's advocate to eating in the lab. >>Okay folks, >> >>Just wanted to let you know about the phone call I just received from a >>physician here. >> >>She stated that she is seeing a patient who is pregnant and having >difficulty >>in keeping food down. They are going to put her on a nasal/gastric tube >with a >>pump and feedbags. She wanted to know if it was okay for her to wear it and >>eat in the lab. >> >>Can anyone come up with an excuse why she shouldn't be eating in the lab? >>The bags are prepared in the pharmacy so there is no opening and loading in >>the lab. Better yet would our friends at OSHA consider this "willful >disregard >>of the chemical hygiene plan?" >> >>I think it gives new meaning to the term "strapping the feed bag on." >> >>Nick Pinizzotto >>Environmental Health Officer >>Dept. Environmental Health & Safety >>Thomas Jefferson University >>nick.pinizzotto@mail.tju.edu >>215-503-5853 >> >> Katie Crysup Chemistry Laboratory Coordinator Texas A&M University -- Corpus Christi 6300 Ocean Drive, CS 130 Corpus Christi, Tx 78412 512-994-5701 (O) 512-994-2742 (F) kcrysup@falcon.tamucc.edu ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 2 Mar 1999 16:02:00 -0500 From: "Tayman, Tammy" Subject: Re: Devil's advocate to eating in the lab. MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Okay, perhaps I'm a little confused here. Is this a person "consuming" at a lab where they work? Is this a patient being treated in a "lab" setting? Is this a student? An employee? None of the above? Help? Tammy Tayman ---------- From: Nick Pinizzotto To: LABSAFETY-L@SIU.EDU Subject: Devil's advocate to eating in the lab. Date: Tuesday, March 02, 1999 12:41PM Okay folks, Just wanted to let you know about the phone call I just received from a physician here. She stated that she is seeing a patient who is pregnant and having difficulty in keeping food down. They are going to put her on a nasal/gastric tube with a pump and feedbags. She wanted to know if it was okay for her to wear it and eat in the lab. Can anyone come up with an excuse why she shouldn't be eating in the lab? The bags are prepared in the pharmacy so there is no opening and loading in the lab. Better yet would our friends at OSHA consider this "willful disregard of the chemical hygiene plan?" I think it gives new meaning to the term "strapping the feed bag on." Nick Pinizzotto Environmental Health Officer Dept. Environmental Health & Safety Thomas Jefferson University nick.pinizzotto@mail.tju.edu 215-503-5853 ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 2 Mar 1999 17:04:26 -0500 From: Nick Pinizzotto Subject: Re: Devil's advocate to eating in the lab. Comments: To: ttayman@MC.CC.MD.US In-Reply-To: <199903022109.PAA110284@saluki-mailsmtp.siu.edu> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit For clarification: The patient is an employee (not a Student) here in a research lab. The physician is a doctor here at Jefferson. The physician is treating the patient in a method to eliminate her nausea due to pregnancy. I have been assured that the system is a closed system and there is no opportunity for inadvertent exposure. I must admit that I was kinda surprised by the responses. Let me float some other questions.....I for one have not been one to remove pregnant females from their jobs. Assessing the situation is a must however if we employ good hygienic technique (ie. use of fumehoods, Proper ppe etc.), is the person at any increased risk????? There are women out there who have sued employers (and won) for removing them from jobs which are percieved to have an increased risk for adverse exposures. Isn't that what we are about? Finding methods, work practices and engineering controls to ensure that employees are working safely with chemicals. Nick Pinizzotto Environmental Health Officer Dept. Environmental Health & Safety Thomas Jefferson University nick.pinizzotto@mail.tju.edu 215-503-5853 ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 3 Mar 1999 11:04:54 +1300 From: John Downey Subject: Re: flash points MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Hooray. Anybody feel like chipping in to help buy a Pensky-Marten? Seriously, Beth, why not try approaching some local industries, preferably large ones, and see if you can get some contributions towards the cost, as part of their annual grants to public good. The spinoff for them is that their company logo is plastered all over the equipment and they get to use valuable info that isn't around at present. You may be pleasantly surprised. Does your faculty have a policy on soliciting from outside agencies? John Downey Hazardous Substances Officer Waitakere City Council > -----Original Message----- > From: Beth Brubaker [SMTP:beth.brubaker@MURRAYSTATE.EDU] > Sent: Wednesday, March 03, 1999 7:11 AM > To: LABSAFETY-L@SIU.EDU > Subject: Re: flash points > > I plan to propose flash point testing of mixtures as an undergraduate > research project. We'll start with simple alcohol/water mixtures and move > up to other solvent mixtures. Our main hurdle will be purchasing the test > equipment. If this goes through, I'll post data as it's compiled. > > Beth Brubaker > Lab/Safety/Waste Coordinator > Murray State University Department of Chemistry > (502) 762-6390 > beth.brubaker@murraystate.edu ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 2 Mar 1999 17:16:00 -0500 From: "Tayman, Tammy" Subject: Re: Devil's advocate to eating in the lab. Comments: To: Nick Pinizzotto MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Just remember: You're liability continues until the child reaches age of majority plus a year or two (depending on the state). The woman and the employer cannot negate the rights of the unborn child. If you knowingly allow a pregnant woman to have even the remotest chance at exposure to a known teratogen, carcinogen, mutagen, etc, do you really think a jury is gonna go in *your* favor?!? What would the *prudent* person do? I know what I would do! Tammy Tayman ---------- From: Nick Pinizzotto To: ttayman@MC.CC.MD.US Cc: LABSAFETY-L@SIU.EDU Subject: Re: Devil's advocate to eating in the lab. Date: Tuesday, March 02, 1999 5:04PM For clarification: The patient is an employee (not a Student) here in a research lab. The physician is a doctor here at Jefferson. The physician is treating the patient in a method to eliminate her nausea due to pregnancy. I have been assured that the system is a closed system and there is no opportunity for inadvertent exposure. I must admit that I was kinda surprised by the responses. Let me float some other questions.....I for one have not been one to remove pregnant females from their jobs. Assessing the situation is a must however if we employ good hygienic technique (ie. use of fumehoods, Proper ppe etc.), is the person at any increased risk????? There are women out there who have sued employers (and won) for removing them from jobs which are percieved to have an increased risk for adverse exposures. Isn't that what we are about? Finding methods, work practices and engineering controls to ensure that employees are working safely with chemicals. Nick Pinizzotto Environmental Health Officer Dept. Environmental Health & Safety Thomas Jefferson University nick.pinizzotto@mail.tju.edu 215-503-5853 ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 2 Mar 1999 16:20:37 -0600 From: Harry Elston Subject: Re: Devil's advocate to eating in the lab. In-Reply-To: Mime-Version: 1.0 At 12:41 PM 3/2/99 -0500, you wrote: >Okay folks, > >Just wanted to let you know about the phone call I just received from a >physician here. > >She stated that she is seeing a patient who is pregnant and having difficulty >in keeping food down. They are going to put her on a nasal/gastric tube with a >pump and feedbags. She wanted to know if it was okay for her to wear it and >eat in the lab. > >Can anyone come up with an excuse why she shouldn't be eating in the lab? >The bags are prepared in the pharmacy so there is no opening and loading in >the lab. Better yet would our friends at OSHA consider this "willful disregard >of the chemical hygiene plan?" > >I think it gives new meaning to the term "strapping the feed bag on." If this is in an academic setting, why not letting her comp out of the lab portion or reduce the credit value for the course so she doesn't even have to be in the lab? Being pregnant and unable to eat is bad enough, but if she's exposed to something and there's problems with the pregnancy, you can bet that there will be hell to pay later on. If it's industrial, maybe consider changing the CHP to add a "declared pregnancy" option to avoid risk of exposure to unborn children. I remember when I was an undergraduate at Hillsdale College. There was a 11 year old prodigy in our chemistry class and the professor simply said, "not in my laboratory." He was given comparable work to perform outside the laboratory and the course credit was reduced from 4 to 3 to make up for it. None of the other students really cared. For all of the ADA people out there, I do not believe that "pregnancy" is defined as a "disability" under ADA, but I may be mistaken. Personally, I'd recommend for you to find something else for her to do. I think that keeping her out of the lab for the reason of protecting her unborn child is of higher value than reducing your liability from an ADA problem or OSHA audit. Sometimes you just have to take the moral high ground on thiese issues, and in my opinion, the morally right thing to do is protect the mom and her child. This may be a situation that whatever you do, it will be wrong. Just choose the best option. Harry Harry J. Elston, NRCC-CHO Chemical Hygiene Officer Illinois Department of Nuclear Safety My opinions only, not my employer's, blah, blah,blah "Of all the gin joints in all the towns in all the world, she has to walk into mine" -Rick, Casablanca ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 2 Mar 1999 18:17:54 -0500 Reply-To: Bob Burns From: Bob Burns Subject: Re: Devil's advocate to eating in the lab. MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Yeah, Nick, these are all good issues, and you are right about exposing no-one. However, zero exposure is a dream, IMHO. WE (industrial R&D) find other work for expectant mothers. IN my view, the fetus is much more sensitive to exposure than is an adult, and that is why I advocate removal. However, I will admit if someone challanges us we would probably have to let them work in lab. But why would they? They get their usual pay to do literature searches and the like. It is professional work. We had a thread on this a while ago, and I believe the majority agreed with your opinion. Then there is another whole can of worms with students, which is really not my issue, but I do see the problem. Hope this helps. Like so many issues we discuss, we can all express opinions, but y0u still have to make a judgement about what is the prope thig for YOU to do. That's why they pay us the big bucks! Bob "EVERYTHING IS EASY FOR THE PERSON WHO DOESN'T HAVE TO DO IT." Robert L. Burns R&D Group Leader Speciality Chemicals Division RUETGERS Organics Corp. 201 Struble Road State College, PA phone 814 231 9214 fax 814 238 1567 email rburns@bigfoot.com >Let me float some other questions.....I for one have not been one to remove >pregnant females from their jobs. Assessing the situation is a must however >if we employ good hygienic technique (ie. use of fumehoods, Proper ppe etc.), >is the person at any increased risk????? There are women out there who have >sued employers (and won) for removing them from jobs which are percieved to >have anincreased risk for adverse exposures. > >Isn't that what we are about? Finding methods, work practices and engineering >controls to ensure that employees are working safely with chemicals. > > Nick Pinizzotto >Environmental Health Officer >Dept. Environmental Health & Safety >Thomas Jefferson University >nick.pinizzotto@mail.tju.edu >215-503-5853 ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 2 Mar 1999 16:21:48 -0800 From: Gillian Gardner Subject: Re: Devil's advocate to eating in the lab. In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Personally, I've gone through two pregnancies while maintaining my work in laboratories. That said, I was careful to take proper precautions. For example, always working in a fume hood when using halogenated solvents, no matter how small the quantity and always wearing gloves. Also, I delegated filling the hazardous waste drum to someone who wasn't pregnant. Basically, I educated myself as to the hazardous and did not perform work that would present a danger to myself or my child. Both my employers for the two pregnancies were happy with that compromise as was I. I have advised students in organic chemistry lab who are pregnant to consider not taking the laboratory due to the fumes that arise in an organic lab full of students. The two times this has occurred, the student has opted to wait and take organic chemistry lab after her pregnancy. I would think if the feeding system is closed, then it should not be an additional hazard and only the "normal" hazards of working in a laboratory while pregnant need to be considered. While we prohibit eating in the laboratory, this doesn't seem to be eating per se in that the food is not out in the open and going from hand to mouth. Just my opinion. Gillian Gardner On Tue, 2 Mar 1999, Nick Pinizzotto wrote: > For clarification: > > The patient is an employee (not a Student) here in a research lab. The > physician is a doctor here at Jefferson. The physician is treating the patient > in a method to eliminate her nausea due to pregnancy. I have been assured that > the system is a closed system and there is no opportunity for inadvertent > exposure. > > I must admit that I was kinda surprised by the responses. > > Let me float some other questions.....I for one have not been one to remove > pregnant females from their jobs. Assessing the situation is a must however if > we employ good hygienic technique (ie. use of fumehoods, Proper ppe etc.), is > the person at any increased risk????? There are women out there who have sued > employers (and won) for removing them from jobs which are percieved to have an > increased risk for adverse exposures. > > Isn't that what we are about? Finding methods, work practices and engineering > controls to ensure that employees are working safely with chemicals. > > Nick Pinizzotto > Environmental Health Officer > Dept. Environmental Health & Safety > Thomas Jefferson University > nick.pinizzotto@mail.tju.edu > 215-503-5853 > ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 2 Mar 1999 17:21:00 -0700 From: "Helen B. Gerhard" Subject: Re: Devil's advocate to eating in the lab. MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Could taking an organic lab during early pregnancy (months 2-6) lead to problems in development of amniotic bands or something similar? Thanks! Helen -----Original Message----- From: Gillian Gardner [SMTP:gardner@LCLARK.EDU] Sent: Tuesday, March 02, 1999 5:22 PM To: LABSAFETY-L@SIU.EDU Subject:Re: Devil's advocate to eating in the lab. Personally, I've gone through two pregnancies while maintaining my work in laboratories. That said, I was careful to take proper precautions. For example, always working in a fume hood when using halogenated solvents, no matter how small the quantity and always wearing gloves. Also, I delegated filling the hazardous waste drum to someone who wasn't pregnant. Basically, I educated myself as to the hazardous and did not perform work that would present a danger to myself or my child. Both my employers for the two pregnancies were happy with that compromise as was I. I have advised students in organic chemistry lab who are pregnant to consider not taking the laboratory due to the fumes that arise in an organic lab full of students. The two times this has occurred, the student has opted to wait and take organic chemistry lab after her pregnancy. I would think if the feeding system is closed, then it should not be an additional hazard and only the "normal" hazards of working in a laboratory while pregnant need to be considered. While we prohibit eating in the laboratory, this doesn't seem to be eating per se in that the food is not out in the open and going from hand to mouth. Just my opinion. Gillian Gardner On Tue, 2 Mar 1999, Nick Pinizzotto wrote: > For clarification: > > The patient is an employee (not a Student) here in a research lab. The > physician is a doctor here at Jefferson. The physician is treating the patient > in a method to eliminate her nausea due to pregnancy. I have been assured that > the system is a closed system and there is no opportunity for inadvertent > exposure. > > I must admit that I was kinda surprised by the responses. > > Let me float some other questions.....I for one have not been one to remove > pregnant females from their jobs. Assessing the situation is a must however if > we employ good hygienic technique (ie. use of fumehoods, Proper ppe etc.), is > the person at any increased risk????? There are women out there who have sued > employers (and won) for removing them from jobs which are percieved to have an > increased risk for adverse exposures. > > Isn't that what we are about? Finding methods, work practices and engineering > controls to ensure that employees are working safely with chemicals. > > Nick Pinizzotto > Environmental Health Officer > Dept. Environmental Health & Safety > Thomas Jefferson University > nick.pinizzotto@mail.tju.edu > 215-503-5853 > ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 2 Mar 1999 20:17:46 -0500 From: "Julie J. O'Brien" Subject: Re: flash points In-Reply-To: <99Mar3.110441nzdt.32258@breathe.waitakere.govt.nz> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Re: Industries pitching in for the cost of a Pensky-Martens flash point apparatus Another option would be to find an industry who uses one & might be interested in the data. We don't use isopropanol, unfortunately, or I would have just had the results done myself at work. It's interesting to note that it often does not take much of a low flash point chemical in a mixture to affect the flash point in a mixture with, say, water. We've had processing problems because we had by-products with <10% of a low flash point material and it caused the mixture's flash point to be low enough for the material to be classified as flammable per DOT standards. That can really drive up waste disposal costs quickly. Julie O'Brien PCR, Inc. and EXPO Children's Museum ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 2 Mar 1999 21:34:03 -0800 Reply-To: Marc Neuffer From: Marc Neuffer Subject: Request from Macedonia MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I am forwarding this message we received for comment by the group... please respond to original sender at zzprogs@soros.org.mk We sent our reply, but feel that members of the group can provide better. Thanks. Regards, Marc Neuffer SafetyInfo.Com -----Original Message----- From: Milan Petkovski To: safety1@localaccess.net Date: Tuesday, March 02, 1999 6:53 PM My name is Milan Petkovski and I have graduated in Occupational Safety Engineer from Macedonia a small country in Europe. I am interested how my colleagues from around the world deal with certain problems, especially in the field of recognizing our profession on the scientific [professional] bases. We have a big problem here in Macedonia with this issue. Many of our colleges can not find job arrangements because the prudent jobs are fulfilled with persons with inadequate educational level. Second, I am interested in learning about the existence of any International Alliance of the Occupational Safety Engineers. Is there such an Organization in the world on International bases? Please, if you know the answer to this question reply as soon as possible. Thank You. Sincerely, Milan Petkovski ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 2 Mar 1999 22:38:41 EST From: Labsafe@AOL.COM Subject: Re: Lab Standard v. Haz Com Standard Comments: To: RNorman@BIORELIANCE.com Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit In a message dated 99-03-01 15:06:31 EST, you write: << It just seems clear to me that OSHA meant for both standards to apply. >> Randy presents a clear and reasonable argument. However, my reading of the scope, section (a), of the lab standard leaves me with the equally clear belief that there was no intention to have both standards apply. Recently, I spoke with the Director of the PESH in NY and his regulatory interpreter. Both confirmed that my interpretation was 100% correct. The presumption (which I believe is reasonable) in the lab standard is that if you develope a plan of good practice and follow it, you do not need to do that other stuff (Haz Com). ... jim ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 2 Mar 1999 22:38:39 EST From: Labsafe@AOL.COM Subject: Recent Grad Seeks Job Comments: To: Safety , NAOSMM@LISTSERV.RICE.EDU, hs-canada@ccohs.ca, dchas-l@SIU.EDU, biosafty@mitvma.mit.edu Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit Hi NACHOs, SAFETYs, and BIOSAFETYs, I met a student, Stephen Flynn, last year at Keene State. He has recently completed his studies and is looking for.... "I've thought long an hard about a career choice and have firmly decided that laboratory safety is where I belong. I've always felt at home with labs and scientists. The unique combinations of degrees and an interest in toxicology, health and safety seems to make me rather well suited, and I know that I'd find such a position, and the associated people extremely stimulating." .... "I've graduated in December with a BS in Safety Studies to add to my former BS in Chemistry/Geololgy. I'm trying to find a "particular" job. The job that I'm looking for is an entry level or somewhat experienced (I have a couple of years of IH experience) laboratory safety specialist." Please contact Stephen directly if you have information about a position for which he might apply in the New England Area. Stephen Flynn, 42 Pine Street, Keene, NH 03431 603-352-1850 jsflynn@cheshire.net ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 3 Mar 1999 06:51:39 EST From: Labsafe@AOL.COM Subject: Re: delete my address from list Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit In a message dated 99-03-02 09:07:20 EST, you write: << Please delete my address from your mailing list until further request. Thanks. Ahmed H. Fayoumi fayoumi@kfupm.edu.sa >> Hi Ahmed, Please use the information below to complete the SIGNOFF. ... jim Please save this message for future reference, especially if this is the first time you subscribe to an electronic mailing list. If you ever need to leave the list, you will find the necessary instructions below. Perhaps more importantly, saving a copy of this message (and of all future subscription notices from other mailing lists) in a special mail folder will give you instant access to the list of mailing lists that you are subscribed to. This may prove very useful the next time you go on vacation and need to leave the lists temporarily so as not to fill up your mailbox while you are away! You should also save the "welcome messages" from the list owners that you will occasionally receive after subscribing to a new list. To send a message to all the people currently subscribed to the list, just send mail to LABSAFETY-L@SIU.EDU. This is called "sending mail to the list", because you send mail to a single address and LISTSERV makes copies for all the people who have subscribed. This address (LABSAFETY-L@SIU.EDU) is also called the "list address". You must never try to send any command to that address, as it would be distributed to all the people who have subscribed. All commands must be sent to the "LISTSERV address", LISTSERV@SIU.EDU. It is very important to understand the difference between the two, but fortunately it is not complicated. The LISTSERV address is like a FAX number that connects you to a machine, whereas the list address is like a normal voice line connecting you to a person. If you make a mistake and dial the FAX number when you wanted to talk to someone on the phone, you will quickly realize that you used the wrong number and call again. No harm will have been done. If on the other hand you accidentally make your FAX call someone's voice line, the person receiving the call will be inconvenienced, especially if your FAX then re-dials every 5 minutes. The fact that most people will eventually connect the FAX machine to the voice line to allow the FAX to go through and make the calls stop does not mean that you should continue to send FAXes to the voice number. People would just get mad at you. It works pretty much the same way with mailing lists, with the difference that you are calling hundreds or thousands of people at the same time, and consequently you can expect a lot of people to get upset if you consistently send commands to the list address. You may leave the list at any time by sending a "SIGNOFF LABSAFETY-L" command to LISTSERV@SIU.EDU. You can also tell LISTSERV how you want it to confirm the receipt of messages you send to the list. If you do not trust the system, send a "SET LABSAFETY-L REPRO" command and LISTSERV will send you a copy of your own messages, so that you can see that the message was distributed and did not get damaged on the way. After a while you may find that this is getting annoying, especially if your mail program does not tell you that the message is from you when it informs you that new mail has arrived from LABSAFETY-L. If you send a "SET LABSAFETY-L ACK NOREPRO" command, LISTSERV will mail you a short acknowledgement instead, which will look different in your mailbox directory. With most mail programs you will know immediately that this is an acknowledgement you can read later. Finally, you can turn off acknowledgements completely with "SET LABSAFETY-L NOACK NOREPRO". Contributions sent to this list are automatically archived. You can get a list of the available archive files by sending an "INDEX LABSAFETY-L" command to LISTSERV@SIU.EDU. You can then order these files with a "GET LABSAFETY-L LOGxxxx" command, or using LISTSERV's database search facilities. Send an "INFO DATABASE" command for more information on the latter. This list is available in digest form. If you wish to receive the digested version of the postings, just issue a SET LABSAFETY-L DIGEST command. If you are going on vacation or will be away for business and would like to suspend email delivery, send a SET LABSAFETY-L NOMail command. To restore service, send SET LABSAFETY-L Mail. Please note that it is presently possible for other people to determine that you are signed up to the list through the use of the "REVIEW" command, which returns the e-mail address and name of all the subscribers. If you do not want your name to be visible, just issue a "SET LABSAFETY-L CONCEAL" command. More information on LISTSERV commands can be found in the LISTSERV reference card, which you can retrieve by sending an "INFO REFCARD" command to LISTSERV@SIU.EDU. ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 3 Mar 1999 07:09:39 EST From: Labsafe@AOL.COM Subject: Re: Concealed Members Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit Hi NACHOs, Someone asked about "concealed members". If you look back at the list directions you received and "saved" when you joined NACHO, it says.... "Please note that it is presently possible for other people to determine that you are signed up to the list through the use of the "REVIEW" command, which returns the e-mail address and name of all the subscribers. If you do not want your name to be visible, just issue a "SET LABSAFETY-L CONCEAL" command." Regards.... Jim PS. LSW is getting ready to announce twelve one-day seminars throughout New York State in April and May. If you would like to consider hosting one of these at your place in exchange for two free registrations, please contact Tricia McGann at lswpfm@aol.com. She can fax you more details. ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 3 Mar 1999 07:49:01 EST From: Labsafe@AOL.COM Subject: Re: flash points Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit In a message dated 99-03-02 17:11:01 EST, you write: << Hooray. Anybody feel like chipping in to help buy a Pensky-Marten? >> Hi NACHOs, How expensive are these? ... jim ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 3 Mar 1999 08:13:31 -0500 From: Dewey Williams Subject: Re: Devil's advocate to eating in the lab. In-Reply-To: <000e01be6502$e7844d60$4061add1@ucrpd> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed If given the option, wouldn't a woman take the non-lab work to protect herself and child? I would give here the option of doing non-lab work, at the same pay. If she refuses then get her to sign a waiver stating that there will be no repercussions due to possible exposure. As someone pointed out, however, this still makes you liable to the fetus. But it makes the mother just as responsible. The 'prudent' thing to do is to remove her and the child from any possible harm. >>Let me float some other questions.....I for one have not been one to remove >>pregnant females from their jobs. Assessing the situation is a must however >if >>we employ good hygienic technique (ie. use of fumehoods, Proper ppe etc.), >is >>the person at any increased risk????? There are women out there who have >sued >>employers (and won) for removing them from jobs which are percieved to have >an >>increased risk for adverse exposures. >> >>Isn't that what we are about? Finding methods, work practices and >engineering >>controls to ensure that employees are working safely with chemicals. >> >> Nick Pinizzotto >>Environmental Health Officer >>Dept. Environmental Health & Safety >>Thomas Jefferson University >>nick.pinizzotto@mail.tju.edu >>215-503-5853 >> >> Dewey Williams - Lab Manager mailto:williams@email.uncc.edu UNC-Charlotte Chemistry Dept. http://www.chem.uncc.edu "These are my ideas and no one else will claim them." "If you are not part of the solution, you are part of the precipitate" ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 3 Mar 1999 07:46:31 -0700 From: "Greene, Ben" Subject: Re: Lab Standard v. Haz Com Standard MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Perhaps I have missed something concerning the application of the lab standard v. Haz Com. Am I wrong about this: When at work and in the lab doing lab work I am covered by the lab standard. But when I leave the lab (still at work) and go to a welding shop I am not covered by the lab standard but by Haz Com and welding standards. When I go from there (still at work) to a test location where threshold quantities of highly hazardous chemicals are used, I am covered by Process Safety and Haz Com, but not by the lab standard. Later in the day (still at work), when I swing by a QA lab that is part of a production process, I am not covered by the lab standard (according to the lab standard), but by Haz Com. When I am on work-sponsered travel and visiting/working in a lab not owned by my employer, I am covered by the lab standard and must abide by MY chemical hygiene plan. All depends on where you are while at work. Must be equally as complicated for universities and other interdisciplinary facilities. Comments? Ben Greene, Ph.D. AlliedSignal Las Cruces, NM > ---------- > From: Labsafe@AOL.COM[SMTP:Labsafe@AOL.COM] > Reply To: LABSAFETY-L Discussion List > Sent: Tuesday, March 02, 1999 8:38 PM > To: LABSAFETY-L@SIU.EDU > Subject: Re: Lab Standard v. Haz Com Standard > > In a message dated 99-03-01 15:06:31 EST, you write: > > << It just seems clear to me that OSHA meant for both standards to > apply. >> > > Randy presents a clear and reasonable argument.... ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 3 Mar 1999 09:31:18 -0500 From: "Norman, Randy" Subject: Re: Devil's advocate to eating in the lab. MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Briefly, The lessons I take home from the Johnson Controls case and the ADA are that there's no prohibition of offering a non-lab assignment as long as pay, leave, etc. is preserved, BUT if the employee refuses the reassignment, then you must make any "reasonable accommodation" that can make it safe for her to do her normal duties, or modify her duties with her approval as much as necessary. Given the financial resources of most Universities, it may be very hard to prove financial hardship sufficient to release you from your responsibility to accommodate. If you want to use safety reasons for excluding her from a job she has had and desires to continue in, IMHO you'll want to be able to prove that there is no way to make it safe without posing a financial hardship (as defined in ADA) on the University. Of course if this is a student, ADA may or may not apply the same way. Can't say I've looked into the non-employee angle at all. Randy Norman Safety Specialist Sr. BioReliance Corporation Rockville, MD 20850 Rnorman@bioreliance.com "Success is a journey, not a destination" - Ben Sweetland -----Original Message----- From: Dewey Williams [SMTP:williams@EMAIL.UNCC.EDU] Sent: Wednesday, March 03, 1999 8:14 AM To: LABSAFETY-L@SIU.EDU Subject:Re: Devil's advocate to eating in the lab. If given the option, wouldn't a woman take the non-lab work to protect herself and child? I would give here the option of doing non-lab work, at the same pay. If she refuses then get her to sign a waiver stating that there will be no repercussions due to possible exposure. As someone pointed out, however, this still makes you liable to the fetus. But it makes the mother just as responsible. The 'prudent' thing to do is to remove her and the child from any possible harm. >>Let me float some other questions.....I for one have not been one to remove >>pregnant females from their jobs. Assessing the situation is a must however >if >>we employ good hygienic technique (ie. use of fumehoods, Proper ppe etc.), >is >>the person at any increased risk????? There are women out there who have >sued >>employers (and won) for removing them from jobs which are percieved to have >an >>increased risk for adverse exposures. >> >>Isn't that what we are about? Finding methods, work practices and >engineering >>controls to ensure that employees are working safely with chemicals. >> >> Nick Pinizzotto >>Environmental Health Officer >>Dept. Environmental Health & Safety >>Thomas Jefferson University >>nick.pinizzotto@mail.tju.edu >>215-503-5853 >> >> Dewey Williams - Lab Manager mailto:williams@email.uncc.edu UNC-Charlotte Chemistry Dept. http://www.chem.uncc.edu "These are my ideas and no one else will claim them." "If you are not part of the solution, you are part of the precipitate" ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 3 Mar 1999 09:36:17 -0500 From: "Norman, Randy" Subject: Lab Std vs. Formaldehyde Std MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Since Jim has at least agreed I have a decent argument (of course I thought I did), I feel okay about sending it to the list now. I had simply sent it to Jim privately. For your consideration: -----Original Message----- A very interesting issue. Actually, I feel it is fairly clear that OSHA INTENDS labs to be covered by the Formaldehyde Standard. (before you delete this, please read on.) Looking at section (a)(2)(i) of the Lab Std, the question is: Does the formaldehyde standard "state otherwise"? If you look at the "Scope and application" section (a) of the Formaldehyde Std., it merely says that it applies "to all occupational exposures to formaldehyde" - the SAME wording as in other substance-specific health standards, which are very clearly intended to be superceded by the Lab Std for labs. So the answer to the operative question is clearly "NO" if the language of the standard is all you have. HOWEVER (and this is what has kept us involved with the Formaldehyde Std.) look at the "Regulatory Impact and Regulatory Flexibility Assessment" section of the preamble to the revised Formaldehyde Std. [57 FR No. 102 (May 27, 1992), pp. 22302 and 22305 especially]. Published more than 2 years AFTER the Lab Standard, one would hope that OSHA would know whether to exclude Labs or at least treat them differently in the analysis. (Yes I'm one of those poor brave souls who usually reads preambles to final rules! One day I must get a life.)* :-) In their cost analysis, OSHA very clearly and specifically assesses the impact on "Laboratories", including "histology and pathology labs". The table on p. 22305 clearly shows that they believe labs will incur costs associated with Engineering controls, Medical Removal Protection (MRP), and Training requirements. The analysis of MRP and Training costs make no indication that labs will experience any impact differently from any other affected industry. Some incremental increase in costs for Training and Engineering controls may still arguably have arisen even under the lab standard (due to the changed PELs). However MRP is not part of the picture unless the whole formaldehyde standard applies. (MRP is not Medical Surveillance, which does apply if the AL is "routinely exceeded".) However, labs aren't mentioned elsewhere in the preamble to the 1992 revision. Main discussion of applicability to labs was probably in the preamble to the initial (1987) version. Unfortunately I couldn't find the 1987 preamble. I likewise couldn't run down a copy of the preamble to the Lab Std. (shame on me if I didn't save it!). I was pretty sure that OSHA used the Formaldehyde Standard as am example of one of those which DOES apply to labs and was therefore NOT to be superceded by the Lab Std. (I believe their stated intention was that BOTH regs be applied to work with such substances.) If I didn't read it in the preamble, then the point was hammered into my brain by SOMEONE because I used the Formaldehyde Std as an example of one which we still have to comply with in my Lab Std training class from the outset. It was a clear question then and the answer I had was that both apply. Could've sworn that the guidance came straight from the preamble. IMyHO, at best one can say that OSHA failed to include wording in the revised Formaldehyde Standard to carry out their intentions. In 1992, OSHA apparently failed to realize that the 1987 version didn't state in the regulation that it applies to labs and that it would need to in the wake of the Lab Std. One would probably win the battle in court, should OSHA issue a Form. Std. citation to a lab. However, as always, strict regulatory compliance falls far short of my goal as a Health and Safety pro. It just seems clear to me that OSHA meant for both standards to apply. Of course I would just LOVE to get my hands on a definitive ruling by OSHA on the question. But even finding one, I realize that the Formaldehyde Standard establishes a "standard of care" which I must uphold as long as I haven't very good reason to explain why I should do any particular part of it differently. That's my take on it all. I'd be interested in knowing your thoughts. (And of course if you have any specific info. from OSHA...) Sorry so wordy. (Could have been worse, trust me.) Thanks!! Randy Norman Safety Specialist Sr. BioReliance Corporation Rockville, MD 20850 Rnorman@bioreliance.com "Success is a journey, not a destination" - Ben Sweetland ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 3 Mar 1999 10:21:04 -0500 From: Bob Burns Subject: Re: Lab Std vs. Formaldehyde Std MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit IN the preamble to the Lab Standard, Fed. Register Vol. 55 No. 21, page 3311, it says: "OSHA sees no reason why laboratories, other than histology, pathology and anatomy laboratories, which use formaldehyde should not be covered by this laboratory standard." I can't tell if the intent was to continue the formaldehyde standard as well, but I suspect it was. Hope this helps! Bob "SEMPER ADVENTURUS!!!" Robert L. Burns R&D Group Leader Specialty Chemicals Division RUETGERS Organics Corporation 201 Struble Road State College, PA 16801 phone 814-231-9214 fax 815 333 4805 email rburns@bigfoot.com >A very interesting issue. Actually, I feel it is fairly clear that OSHA >INTENDS labs to be covered by the Formaldehyde Standard. (before you delete >this, please read on.) > ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 3 Mar 1999 10:53:16 -0400 From: Don Abramowitz Subject: Re: Devil's advocate to eating in the lab. Mime-Version: 1.0 >Briefly, The lessons I take home from the Johnson Controls case and the ADA >are that there's no prohibition of offering a non-lab assignment as long as >pay, leave, etc. is preserved, BUT if the employee refuses the reassignment, >then you must make any "reasonable accommodation" that can make it safe for >her to do her normal duties, or modify her duties with her approval as much >as necessary. Now that we are fully back to the thread on pregnancy in the laboratory setting, I'll venture that Johnson Controls case makes asking an employee to sign a waiver completely inappropriate. With regard to ADA, my understanding is that students are covered under the public accomodations aspects of the Act. I don't know whether ADA in fact recognizes uncomplicated pregnancy as a disability - can anyone confim? We've had several laboratory-based Chemistry and Biology professors and students remain at their posts through pregancies. Our approach, as reviewed with the college's attorney, has been to address pregnancy only when people self-identify their status, to provide them lots of information from the literature on reproductive hazards, to offer them alternatives to lab work (or a refund of tuition if they choose to drop courses - can't quite guarantee full credit for say, organic chemistry w/o lab work), and to work with them to minimize exposure if they choose to remain in the labs. Modifications have included use of respirators, finding someone else to perform specific tasks, and substitutions of particular lab exercises/materials, but I have not encountered anyone who was willing to take a non-lab alternate position. This approach is based as much on the culture of our institutions as on our concerns about risk. I present it as an example, rather than as a suggested solution. Don ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 3 Mar 1999 10:55:56 -0500 From: Nick Pinizzotto Subject: Re: Lab Standard v. Haz Com Standard Comments: To: Labsafe@aol.com In-Reply-To: <6426f19b.36dcaec1@aol.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Jim, I've had more than one argument with consulting trainers about the very topic of the Lab Standard replacing the RTK standard. I agree with you, my interpretation is that it supersedes the hazcom standard. We've always trained as such. Nick Pinizzotto Environmental Health Officer Dept. Environmental Health & Safety Thomas Jefferson University nick.pinizzotto@mail.tju.edu 215-503-5853 ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 3 Mar 1999 10:42:02 -0600 From: Beth Brubaker Subject: Re: flash points Mime-Version: 1.0 It looks to me as if the Tag Closed Tester is most appropriate for solvent/water mixtures. The Pensky-Martens is applicable to high-viscosity materials. Fisher Sci. has one available at a catalog price ~$1600. I assume a refrigerating circulator would also be required to cool the system below ambient temperature. This would be ~$1800. Beth Brubaker Lab/Safety/Waste Coordinator Murray State University Department of Chemistry (502) 762-6390 beth.brubaker@murraystate.edu ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 3 Mar 1999 11:28:46 -0500 From: "Norman, Randy" Subject: Re: Lab Std vs. Formaldehyde Std MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" * IN the preamble to the Lab Standard, Fed. Register Vol. 55 No. 21, page * 3311, it says: "OSHA sees no reason why laboratories, other than histology, * pathology and anatomy laboratories, which use formaldehyde should not be * covered by this laboratory standard." Hmmmmmmm... I went looking for the related compliance directive for the revised standard at www.osha.gov . The one from Nov 1990 (CPL 2-2.52) ( OSHA's formaldehyde standard enforcement procedures) talks about the interface with the Lab Standard specifically, as the Lab Standard final rule had been issued... Here it is, straight from OSHA: ****************************************** "The laboratory standard, 29 CFR 1910.1450, specifically does not apply to formaldehyde use in histology, pathology, and human or animal anatomy laboratories; however, if formaldehyde is used in other types of laboratories which are covered by the laboratory standard the employer needs to comply with 29 CFR 1910.1450 " ******************************************** This is what OSHA inspectors use to direct their enforcement of the Formaldehyde Standard. I think the intent is clear. Sorry I didn't fully research this before "opening my big mouth". The above is what we all needed to know from the get-go! Of course now seeing it, I remember reading this before, exactly as stated here. Obviously if OSHA tells their inspectors this, then we had better be ready to defend ourselves if we choose not to "do" the formaldehyde standard in histo, path, or anatomy labs. BTW, OSHA now has some preambles on their website. Don't know how comprehensive, but I must say it behooves one to read either preambles or compliance directives or both for any reg that may apply. I know takes lots of time, but take it a little bit at a time. It can also enrich your training tremendously if you know more about WHY OSHA has chosen to require what they do. Randy Norman Safety Specialist Sr. BioReliance Corporation Rockville, MD 20850 Rnorman@bioreliance.com "Success is a journey, not a destination" - Ben Sweetland ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 3 Mar 1999 11:31:51 -0500 From: "Norman, Randy" Subject: Re: Lab Standard v. Haz Com Standard MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" I concur 100%, with the caveat that I feel that OSHA doesn't communicate this very clearly, in preamble or actual reg. Also remember as another has already pointed out, that any exposures outside of the lab are covered under Haz Comm and any substance-specific standards for the substance. Randy Norman Safety Specialist Sr. BioReliance Corporation Rockville, MD 20850 Rnorman@bioreliance.com "Success is a journey, not a destination" - Ben Sweetland ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 3 Mar 1999 10:01:52 -0700 From: "Helen B. Gerhard" Subject: Re: Lab Standard v. Haz Com Standard MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain However: It you have both manufacturing/quality labs and research labs you may need to do both since the manufacturing areas do not necessarily fall under your CHP. Thanks! Helen -----Original Message----- From: Labsafe@AOL.COM [SMTP:Labsafe@AOL.COM] Sent: Tuesday, March 02, 1999 8:39 PM To: LABSAFETY-L@SIU.EDU Subject:Re: Lab Standard v. Haz Com Standard In a message dated 99-03-01 15:06:31 EST, you write: << It just seems clear to me that OSHA meant for both standards to apply. >> Randy presents a clear and reasonable argument. However, my reading of the scope, section (a), of the lab standard leaves me with the equally clear belief that there was no intention to have both standards apply. Recently, I spoke with the Director of the PESH in NY and his regulatory interpreter. Both confirmed that my interpretation was 100% correct. The presumption (which I believe is reasonable) in the lab standard is that if you develope a plan of good practice and follow it, you do not need to do that other stuff (Haz Com). ... jim LSW is a national non-profit educational organization dedicated to making health and safety an integral and important part of science education. Free copies of our Laboratory Safety Guidelines, seminar schedule, Publications List, AV-Lending Library List, and membership information are available on request. The LABSAFETY-L discussion list is a public service of LSW. ****************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 3 Mar 1999 12:49:49 -0500 From: Michelle DeStefano Subject: Re: welcome Mime-Version: 1.0 Dear fellow "NACHO's", As a new member, I have been asked to introduce myself, so here goes... I am a supervisor in a research mycobacteriology laboratory where our focus is tuberculosis. My main interest is biosafety and I am a CBSP (Certified Biological Safety Specialist). I am a member of our institution's Biosafety Committee. In addition, I am Chair of the Research Safety Subcommittee which is a "hands-on" type of committee that is comprised almost exclusively of technical staff. We try to address all the safety issues that are involved in working in a research laboratory as well as trying to keep up with the ever-changing regulations. (That keeps us REALLY busy) This is the reason that I felt subscribing to this discussion group would be a useful tool. Some of the main issues I have are: what do you do to provide effective support to staff and how do you provide follow-up? We have a semi-annual walk-thru of the facility and compliance goals, but I would like to see more of the staff get involved. Nice "meeting" all of you... CNY Research Corporation 800 Irving Avenue Syracuse NY 13210 e-mail : destefam@cnyrc.org phone : (315) 477 4597 fax : (315) 476 5348 ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 3 Mar 1999 10:24:58 -0800 From: Michael Ahler Subject: Re: Lab Standard v. Haz Com Standard In-Reply-To: <45C82258A1B2D111892500805FCC9B0D011C04CA@nt05.wstf.nasa.gov> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; name="Re:" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Ben, Your treck through all your areas at work sounds right to me ( Lab standard vs. haz com) except for one. When you are in a laboratory owned and operated by others, whether or not you are "working", you should be covered by the Chemical Hygiene Plan for THAT laboratory, not the Plan for the lab where you usually treck. Only my first impression. Thanks. Michael Ahler, CHO mahler@calpoly.edu Risk Management Cal Poly San Luis Obispo, California ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 3 Mar 1999 09:20:20 -0600 Reply-To: "swiki@bihs.net" From: Swiki Anderson Subject: Re: C Un.....-Re: PREVENTION BY COST EFFECTIVELY ADDRESSING TH E BASIS PROBLEM? MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Mr. Norman, Obviously I offend you and I apologize for that. Offending you was not my purpose. Now allow me to now make a confession to you. I taught in an engineering college for 17 years and have been in the consulting business for about 20 years, with specialty work in labs. About four years ago, largely as a result of a lawsuit against us, I was forced to go to the library and dig into what took place historically in laboratory air flow and control systems. One day after reviewing some of the work of other others, it hit me like a ton of bricks. The early scientists had pull only ventilation systems in their labs, they did work in hoods and their primary concern was containment ventilation within the hood. And, by Golly, they did one heck of a job, accomplishing what was needed. The goal was containment in devices designed for containment purposes... fume hoods and other capture devices. We blew it when we started trying to air condition labs and tried to go to push-pull system. Also going to a cheaper hood designs with lousy aerodynamic characteristics did not help. As a matter of fact this hurt the development effort. We have been wrestling with the push aspects since to include how to sweep the room with make up air, when to introduce the air in to the room, how to keep the hood sashes shut or at minimum opening at all time, how to control the air flows so the exhaust rate is always greater than and set the room supply rate, etc.. and the contributing factors to the overall problem since that started in the early 1950s goes on and on.. I begun to realize --- to understand in great depth --- containment ventilation versus dilution ventilation. And heck, I was a member of the ASHRAE group that wrote the first ASHRAE 110 Standard... the one that is concerned with use of tracer gas to prove containment. Talk about feeling stupid!!! YES... I had designed lab air systems to meet 10 or 20 or 15 ACH... and YES, I had written big bad specifications for hoods and YES, we had done mock-up studies, and the list goes on and on. However, I did not understand what I should have understood. I had to keep asking my self WHY is this taking place? Why is this not repeatable? Why does this factor seem to be of significance in case A and not in case B? The revelation of the concept of containment versus dilutions was the beginning of my understanding. And what did I learn? Well, we don't need 10 or 15 or 20 ACH to contain material in a fume hood or other capture device and if we have this many, we can not protect the dunce that insist on doing something outside a hood that should be done in the hood. I learned that we need to design on the basis of the air flow concept and not on the basis of satisfaction of some "rabbinical" type item that is so concerned with exactness of some fact that it allows "..the baby to be thrown out of the bath water." And, so help me, it is so simple to me now that I wonder why i glossed over the concept for so long! Now, how can I encourage you and others like you to "wake up and smell the roses" and learn and experience what I have learned? This to me is very much like instrument flying..When I was going through the training, before i caught on, I has passed the tests with flying colors, I knew the equations, I had been a VFR pilot for some time, etc....but didn't go together for me until the day the it all clicked in my mind. I had to put it all together in my own heads to be able to safely take off in a sea of white, with the confidence to do that come about painfully in regards to time and effort spent before it "clicked". Now, I had one in our group take me to task regarding Columbia and tell me that I did not know what I was talking about and should keep my opinions to myself. This person also did not like the "tone" of what I wrote. With regard to what happened at Columbia, let us logic through it. The OSHA regs are concerned with concentration exposures of the user. Since most users don't stick their heads in a fume hood, it is logical to me that concentration can be much higher in a hood then they are in the room where the hood is installed. If the concentrations in the room are high then they should be, then the only source of contamination has to be what someone is doing in the work space that they ought not be doing or the hoods or other devices are not containing as they should. Can you agree with this? If outflow exist from the hood then something must be wrong. If the source is in the room, then we must deal with a different set of wrongs. Containment in the hood is a one ventilation problem and dilution in the room is another problem. I believe that harmful activities should be conducted in the hoods or similar such devices. Regardless, for OSHA to find fault given the ways the regs are written, someone has had to take some long term (time) samples in order to condemn the operation as faulty. Otherwise they would have no basis for condemnation under the OSHA regs would they? If the regs condemn on the basis of concentration then the ventilation system lacks sufficient volume to dilute the material to a safe level in the work place, does it not?. Thus the work place has a problem. If the system fails to contain the material in the hood, then the hood has a ventilation related problem, does it not? I can not believe that some OSHA regulator is going to issue a citation without some measurements or other sustainable basis for condemnation; that would invite the wrath of every one plus great ridicule would it not? Could it possibly be that someone, perhaps an employee, has taken the data and turned it over to OSHA? Oh, I agree that the OSHA inspector probably did not take data and I also agree that he needs training. God, with the OSHA office in Houston and the staff they have, I wonder how they have the manpower to answer the phone. They like all of the OSHA offices are underfunded and the staff, at least in that office is really spread thin! The point is, if you have rust on the outside of your hoods, the brass is green, and other tell signs of high concentrations exist in your labs, your labs may not be enjoying containment ventilation. Now what are we going to do about it? Shoot the messenger? We can but that is not going to solve the problem. Given the large number of labs I visit and the problems I see over and over and given the fact that I can offer performance proof of the claims that I make and guarantee correct for these type problems or at least minimizing the workplace concentration problem COST EFFECTIVELY, what can I say? I am spend a great deal of my time and effort trying to educate and improve the work place by sharing what I have painfully learned, done at my expense. Am I wrong? Good engineering and performance is done on the basis of measured and repeatable performance. Oh, well. -----Original Message----- From: Norman, Randy [SMTP:RNorman@BIORELIANCE.COM] Sent: Monday, March 01, 1999 2:55 PM * Many lab users and lab safety people don't know the difference * between these two concepts (see http://www.saai-svc.com/engineer * /html/tech-notex.htm and click on Dilution vs. containment Ventilation! Where are all of these incompetent lab safety people?? Why "trash" them so HERE? Haven't met a one of them yet that didn't know the difference between dilution and local exhaust ventilation. If they know there's a lab std. they must know of the need for local exhaust devices and know or quickly learn when they should be used. I would posit that if they've been proactive enough to subscribe to this listserver, they have probably also learned at least the basics. * If a lab has a dilution ventilation system then it is not working * correctly or the release rate of the toxic material is to high. ???? - I am guessing what is meant is that one should not count on dilution ventilation as your only means of protection from those materials which should be used in a hood. However, adequate dilution ventilation is very important for a lab! We require 10 Air Changes/Hr minimum (yes I know ACH is a rather outmoded measure, but it's easy to verify). What does 10 ACH guarantee? What is your basis of dictating 10 ACH? Why not 20 ACH? Could higher flows and greater face velocities hurt the situation rather than help it? Again, I hope I do not offend you and you will continue to question me. I always learn when someone makes me think and defend what I am doing and saying. Kindest Regards Swiki Anderson, Ph.D., P.E. President Swiki Anderson and Associates, Inc. Consulting Mechanical, Electrical and Instrumentation Engineers 1516 Shiloh Ave. Bryan, Texas 77803 v. 409.779.6068, x11; f-6085 Randy Norman Safety Specialist Sr. BioReliance Corporation Rockville, MD 20850 Rnorman@bioreliance.com "Success is a journey, not a destination" - Ben Sweetland ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 3 Mar 1999 09:34:38 -0700 From: Teresa Robertson Organization: CSU Bakersfield Subject: NACHO Meeting March 22nd in Anaheim Comments: cc: trobertson@csubak.edu MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit I've met so very few of you face-to-face, that I am very much looking forward to the National ACS Meeting in Anaheim, California, later this month! Are we still on for a NACHO Breakfast Meeting, 7:00 a.m., on Monday March 22nd? (..."in the restaurant of the hotel where the Council Committee on Chemical Safety meets at 8:30 a.m. to noon"...) Do we have a "meetings" link at our NACHO site? I could not find one. Can we ask ACS to include a NACHO Meeting link in their Anaheim-meeting-information at their website? Teresa Robertson CSUB =======================================================